In Push For Relevance, Banking Incumbents Take On Internal Disruption

“Personalization is key,” said Sherrie Littlejohn, EVP of Wells Fargo’s Innovation Group, speaking at CB Insights’ Future of Fintech Conference. It should be easy to make customers want to stay with their bank, Littlejohn said.

Littlejohn was joined on the panel by Carey Kolaja, global chief product officer at Citi Fintech, and moderator Anna Irrera.

“Services are wrapped in an experience,” said Kolaja. She noted the importance of determining what problems banks are solving for their customers in order to address pain points and determine how banks can concretely create value for their clients.

Incumbents also struggle with the collaboration vs. competition paradigms in terms of responding to fintechs. “The opportunity to be more open and collaborate will change the future of financial services,” said Kolaja. While external partnerships, from startups to accelerators to joint ventures, get ample press attention, internal collaboration within banks are a cornerstone of effective product development. Kolaja mentioned how her team meets with their regulatory group frequently to walk them through product user stories and gain a better understanding of regulatory concerns as they relate to product development.

“Unexpected things are going to come from unexpected places,” said Littlejohn, referring to the increasing potential for tech giants like Amazon or Facebook to start attacking banks’ market share, “so we need to be aware of the possibilities.”

Culture is one of the biggest challenges incumbents face as they try to integrate new tech and keep up with consumer preferences. “It’s easier to change a tech stack than a culture of 200,000 people,” said Kolaja. Ultimately, people and the perception of regulatory limitations have encumbered incumbents as they embark on internal disruption.

Having the right leaders who are willing to push the envelope to affect changes at the organizational level is key, said Kolaja. Additionally, banks must prioritize training new people, honing the right skills, and staying curious. These are pivotal to creating an organizational culture that values innovation. “It’s coming faster than we can even imagine,” said Littlejohn. “If we don’t start soon, we will be left behind,”

In addition, staying relevant is not just about keeping up with fintech disruption locally. As banks move towards serving more diverse clients, including emerging markets and the underbanked, diversity across all areas becomes more important than ever.

“There is a shift in what leadership requires as we move into a more connected environment,” said Kolaja. Ultimately, it’s a less linear endeavor, requiring vulnerability, agility, and the openness to learn. Kolaja cited one research study showing that if a product is developed for men solely, women would not adopt it, but if a product is developed for women, men will adopt it.

“Diversity is crucial to everything we do. Fintech is not an exception,” said Littlejohn.

Want more data about top fintech companies? Log in to CB Insights or sign up for free below.

Transcripts

Anna: Again, I’d like to start by asking the panelists to introduce themselves.

Carey: Sure. So my name is Carey Kolaja, I’m the Chief Product Officer for Citi FinTech. And the Citi FinTech division was created about 18 months ago and the intent of it was, how do you disrupt from within, within a large institution? And we have a couple of different strategies for that as well as key pillars of opportunities that we focus on that I’m happy to share through the panel.

Sherrie: And I’m Sherrie Littlejohn, I’m with Wells Fargo, and I’m part of the innovation office that we have that was created about 18 to 24 months ago.

Anna: So, let me start by asking a sort of trick question, but…

Carey: It’s not what you said…

Anna: It is a question you’re expecting and I was trying to spice it up a bit. What is a product actually now for a bank. Has FinTech changed the way you define a product, because traditionally a product was your current account. Is it now the app as well? Do you wanna start Carey?

Sherrie: So I’ll start from a Wells Fargo perspective. We tend not to think about products and services as much as we think about the customer experience, and what is it that we’re trying to provide to our customers and what their needs are, and making sure that we understand that more specifically. So in the past, we would have a mortgage customer, you’d have a retail customer. Today we have a customer that wants to have services from us. So we think about it more holistically, with the customer in the center of everything that we do. Does that help with the…

Anna: And how is it different for you?

Carey: Yeah, it’s interesting. So, a little bit of back history. So I was at PayPal for 13 years before I joined Citi 18 months ago. And it was pretty clear what product was, or what a product manager did in the discipline of product management. And so when I joined Citi and we started to recruit talent, I said, “Will I have to hire a product manager?” And they said, “Well, of what product? Like we’ve got people who lead our checking account, our savings account, our loan products,” etc. And it was part of this shift on how do we redefine what a product is, and I think very similar to Sherrie, I mean, we think about a set of features and services that service a need, but it is wrapped in an experience. And I wouldn’t say it was an app. Because…and particularly in the world where we’re starting to see this infusion of digital and physical kind of existence in place across different channels, and particularly in the financial sector, it’s really about what problem are you solving for, and at the end of the day, have you created value?

Anna: And how… I know you have multiple differences between organization is different, because you’re both in innovation departments. But, how do you structure your teams now so that you can deliver products in a more modern way or faster or better?

Sherrie: You know, so many things that we’ve done to get speed to market, which is, as you can imagine, much more critical for us than it might have been in the past. And not that it wasn’t important that we get products to customers faster, it’s just that the engine didn’t work that way. So what we’ve done today is created what I’ll call ‘virtual teams,’ where we bring in the right talent, the right skills to take us from this beginning to the end and speed up the way in which we deliver. So while we may take technologists from the technology organization, we may also have risk people working with us. We will have security, information security folks working with us. And bringing thus, all we along, including those who are in the business, who understand what is it that we want to bring to market.

The other thing that we’ve been doing from our innovation perspective is we act as a catalyst for enterprise thinking. So cross-functional thinking comes from our organization in a lot ways. We do not deliver products. What we do is work with our lines of businesses to affect the delivery of a product. So we are there from beginning to end, but we have different roles as we go through that process. So we may be the very thought leaders bringing in FinTechs, bringing in technology to create something, working with what the business lines might want to ultimately deliver, talking about what can happen, what’s possible, and trying to get out of our own way, if you will, so that we can deliver new and innovative things. But our role may change by the time we get to the end in terms of production because that’s not our space. We may start to hand off and be less involved, as we start to deliver that into the marketplace.

Carey: I’m just curious, how many of you are from kind of an institution or an incumbent? There are a lot of…okay.

Anna: Okay. Is this institutions or…

Carey: Yeah. It’s a just decent amount. I’m just curious because I just wanna kind of frame kind of the response to this, which is, when we were set up…so Stephen Bird who he is CEO, came over from Asia and he was appointed into this new role, and lot of what we heard in I think the previous panel prior to this was about what’s happening in emerging markets, and the trends. And if you’re working out in Asia and you’re working out in some of the markets that either are more innovative or haven’t had the infrastructure barriers that exist, you know, they’re much further along than the U.S. And he came in and he said like, “Look, we gotta figure out how we change the way we service our customers, and how do we change the financial structures and systems that have existed for 200-plus years, at least since we were birthed, and at the end of the day continue to solve for as society is starting to shift.”

And so he said, “Look, I need to form a division. It needs to embody the characteristics of a startup, and that’s everything from how you would go and identify the problem statements you wanna solve for, you’re gonna focus on one market, you’re gonna focus on one customer segment, you’re gonna focus on 32 features.” Is all that we did, and we were maniacal in what we had to deliver, and the difference between Sherrie’s and my organization, is we actually brought the product to market. And it was with the lines of business, but having to be at the forefront of finding a path and a space, for a lot of the resistors, I’ll say, or detractors, was really, really hard. And I will say that as much as we wanted to embody the characteristics, we also couldn’t leave a lot of bodies in our wake. Like we had to figure out a way to stand on the shoulders of everybody else who knew the institutions.

And so we were able to…like there were…so three things that we were able to do. So, one, building business agility, very similar. You know, how do we release quicker? I mean, it can’t be nine months. I mean, we release now every day, and every month, and depending if it’s back-end features or customer-facing features. How do we create digital solutions that will service the needs, and it’s not just creating a solution, it’s looking at the technical architecture of the services and the capabilities that can start to be extensible to other applications and use cases.

And then the third area is probably much…a little bit more traditional in the innovation space, which is, what are the next vectors of growth? What are the areas or themes that are changing the way that we interact with our money and our finances that we have to anticipate and be ready to capture, because at the end of the day we’re far behind.

Anna: So, you kind of sort of started mentioning the resistance that you might get from existing lines of business. So how do you get the lines of business on board so it doesn’t feel like they’re parachuting innovation people onto their heads, they feel like they’re part of a team rather than…but they get at least excited.

Carey: Look, it’s a lot of work. It’s hard. And I’ll tell you this, like the second year is even harder than the first year. Because the first year, you’ve got the senior executive saying, “We gotta do this.” People have it in their incentive plans, and everybody’s running to the same thing. The second year it’s, “Yeah, we can do that too and we wanna be a part of it.” But it was a ton of work and part of it was, “How do we embrace the sense of humility, and how do we embrace the sense of one mission?” We launched a set of features that were in service to our Citi goal customer base in the U.S., and it’s a high profitable segment for us. But I’ll tell you what? We couldn’t have done it without the expertise of those individuals who’ve been servicing that segment for 15, 20, 30 years. Because I didn’t have that experience or institutional knowledge coming in for, you know, 18 months, and I think that symbiotic relationship was critical.

Sherrie: And I would add to that, in that there’s a blending. We definitely need the expertise of those who have been on the ground, in the environment, with the customers. But we bring our customers into this as well. And I would say that the resistance may have been more before our event that we had in October, that we are definitely working toward correcting very…as quickly as we possibly can. But when you have something like that that does happen, it does ignite a different way of thinking. And so everyone is looking for, “How can I do this differently. What went wrong? How can I fix that?” So I want help in how to make it happen. So maybe it happened over here, but let me look over here as well because maybe there was something lurking and I’d like to hear more about what you guys are thinking about in the innovation group, and how I might incorporate that into how I’m thinking about my customers going forward.

Or better yet, let’s talk about our customers as a whole, because that’s what we are really trying to make happen, is to think about my life as a customer from the beginning to the end. And most of us have multiple products. So I don’t wanna have, you come to me differently because you came through a different channel, or you came for a different product or service from us. Instead, I want to look at you one way. And I also want to provide you with an easier way to do business with me, because I’m thinking about you. So think about it from this way. You have an innovation group who is charged with looking across the enterprise. So we have multiple ways of authenticating you as a customer depending on which channel you came in. Well, how about me coming up with a way or ways to authenticate you across the board and let you the customer decide what’s the best way to come in. But I’m still making sure it’s safe and secure for you to come and get access from information. Those are the kinds of things that we…

Carey: And I’ll just add one more thing, because this was I think quite unique, and to what was a catalyst as we started our journey is, while we were maniacally focused, we actually had a very different incentive structure than the rest of the bank and the rest of the institution. And we weren’t encumbered by the bottom line or the top line. And we were asked to say, “Okay, look at what the pain points are and what are the customer asking.” And we collected a lot of data. I mean, we had, you know, thousands of data points early, early on. And then also we’re going back in the market with our product as it evolved, or experience as it evolved to test. And I’ll tell you, I didn’t realize the power of that in as long as I’ve been doing this, particularly with when you’re sitting in front of a number of executives who haven’t had the luxury of being in the market talking to the customers as much as they would have liked. The data spoke, you know, for itself. And so when you talk about, how do you bring those lines and business with you, when they’re hearing it and they’re feeling it and they’re seeing it, that’s their job to service that need. And so trying to understand what the secondary and tertiary kind of metrics of success were, were absolutely critical and we’re seeing a lot of positive results because we led with a different hypothesis than I think people have typically done in the past.

Anna: So, I think from the start of the FinTech times the attitude from incumbents has somewhat changed, at least they have FinTech innovation units and so forth. But what are some of the challenges that still haven’t been solved in terms of being…making it easier for you to put out products. Has legacy sort of non…turned into non-legacy now or is that still holding you guys back.?

Carey: I’ll try…

Sherrie: Go ahead.

Anna: Sure.

Carey: Sherrie is smiling at me. Someone said to me once that it’s easier to change a technology stack than change a culture of 200,000 people, which is true. It is true. And while we still live on a lot of the historical technical architecture and we’re finding ways to create layers to interact with it as we move to more of a modern stack. What has really encumbered us…and I wouldn’t say that that’s encumbered us. You know, there’s been two things, one, it’s people, and two, it’s the perception that the limitations are the regulatory environment. And so I found some of the commentary in some of the earlier panels interesting. Because if you’ve got the right leaders, who are willing to challenge a status quo, and I think intuition to push the envelope in the right places, you can actually make amazing things happened. There’s this perception that, you know, the regulation is so heavy, and it is. But it protects all of us, and some of this protects us from ourselves.

But what we have found is we change the structure of how we looked at our controls function. So, twice a week we would meet with representatives in all of our control functions, and we walk them through the user stories and we walk them through the product people wanna build. And in doing so, it has expedited the process, but the big learning there was, we had people who said you can’t do it. But they were saying that because it was either an old pause here or it was their opinion. Not that it was actually law. And so eventually to this like, “Is it your opinion? Is it policy? Is it law? Because if it’s your opinion, I’m not gonna take that as an answer. If it’s policy, my question is that is the policy…policy for 100 years ago, or10 years ago, or today?” And so I think just changing the way in people looked at why the no was there was really important, but that’s been critical.

Sherrie: Yeah. I like the way that it was framed for you guys and how you look at things. I would also add that culture is difficult. And I think I saw a lot of hands go up, so you know what we’re talking about when we say change in the mindset and change in the culture and the way in which we look at things. Not being afraid that something is going to…suddenly, you are not gonna have a job tomorrow. I mean, that’s real for people thinking about these kinds of things, with these newer technologies, automating things that we don’t need as many people anymore. This is just reality. And just understanding that we do need people to do some of these newer things that are coming on board, and we need to educate our team members to understand what these new technologies are. There’s been more than one person that sat up here and talked about, “We can’t find as many data scientists or as many machine learning talent out there.”

There’s an opportunity there for us to train and teach and help us all to be open to what the possibilities are, but we’re gonna need new skills in order to do this. And I think that’s one of the roadblocks that we have, is that we have…we’re so busy operationally trying to keep things running that we haven’t seen a way to kind of make room for us to learn and train and teach, and be curious about how to make this new world come to fruition. And quite honestly it’s coming faster than we can even imagine, and if we don’t get started soon, we will be left behind. And not only will Fintechs come in and take over some part of our businesses, but quite frankly the unexpected visitor that has nothing to do with financials, will come in and take things over, is my prediction. That’s not a Wells Fargo…

Anna: What do you mean by unexpected…

Sherrie: Well, I just kind of think of Amazon, I think of… Just one to name.

Anna: So, let me ask… Is this…is the fear of Amazon, Google, and Facebook actually driving activity within banks now, or is it the startups? Because it seems like…like banks are still not ready, that first about the startups. What is the biggest driver? Like what is the biggest competitive diver?

Sherrie: I don’t know what the biggest…I don’t know if I have an answer to that. I just think things are gonna come from unexpected places. And we need to be on our toes and be aware of what the possibilities are. I also believe it’s not just looking at what’s in your, you know, belly width or your little house. But looking around at other things that might impact the way customers think about life in general. I don’t think it’s just thinking about retail, and okay, what’s gonna happen in the retail space and how is that gonna impact my business? I think it’s really thinking about me as a customer, me as a company and what my needs are. Because I think the lines are getting very blurred, in terms of what we think about from a financial…

Carey: So I’ll be a little bolder.

Sherrie: Oh, be a little bolder.

Carey: I think fear of relevancy is what’s really driving a lot of these institutions, and it absolutely should.

Sherrie: Absolutely.

Carey: Because, I mean, we all talk about the unbundling of banking and the re-bundling of banking, but it is very true. I mean, there’s different aspects of our profit pools that are being attacked. And so I think that fear is what’s kind of bringing people together to address it. I mean, I… Look, there’s a number of FinTech startups out there that I think are doing some amazing work, and we would be lucky to do business with them. And so there’s a question of why aren’t we. And I think we should explore that. The flip side of it is, you know, if you look at what has started to fall in the kind of the payment…or I would say the services sector, like payments for something that’s gonna…you know, we’ve gone after, not we, the collective we here.

And now you’re starting to see slowdown of venture investment in there, and you saw, you know, kind of pick up in lending and it’s slowing down there, and the belief is that these markets are saturated, and I absolutely think that’s the case. And we can’t think about competing against, you know, the other banks over here because what we’re competing against is the mind share of customers and how they interact with different experiences every day. I mean, you think about banking solutions like Tinder. You think about banking solutions like Instagram, and so I think that’s an important piece in… You know, Amazon and others, they’ve got reach. They’ve got distribution. They’ve got mind share. They’ve got brand trust .And they’ve started to play in other spaces and so you can’t help but wonder where the opportunities and the possibilities are with them.

Anna: So with…

Sherrie: I would just add, you know, one of the things I think that’s gonna be imperative for all of us to kind of think about is, how do we partner better? Just partner better, within our companies as well as outside of our companies, with places and opportunities and capabilities that make sense for what we are trying to do as our companies to satisfy those customers. And that’s not something we have naturally done in a big way, but I think it’s gonna be bringing some of those. And then those are some of the things that we are doing, is looking at, you know, where are the natural…maybe if some unnatural partners that would actually benefit the customer in terms of how customers are doing business today? And that’s just part of it, I think.

Anna: So how much are you thinking of new business models rather than new products. I don’t know if you see what I mean. Is it…are we likely to see new FinTech business models be developed from banks, or banks just trying to scramble and trying to make their app look more like…

Carey: Well, I mean, the winners are gonna completely change the game. I mean, you have to look at where the new profit goals are gonna come from, and what the new business models will be absolutely. I mean, if you think about the money that used to be made from interchange for all these years the reality is, is sending money to somewhere…there’s no money to be made in that anymore, I mean, it’s a part of the engagement play and capturing, you know, what I would say is kind of like the customer problem statement. And so it’s a combination of both. I mean, I think a lot of us, I can’t speak for Sherrie and…but, you know, we know we’ve gotta get at parity. And so what does parity look like. When I first started, you know, we were supposed to build the bank of tomorrow. And that was what our remit was. And I came in as a product lead, I’m like, “I cannot wait to build this bank that I have thought about for so long that can help like solve financial inclusion around the world.”

And the reality was, is, like our customer said was, “No, thank you. Like we don’t need you to go build an experience where you can take a picture of a house and then apply for a mortgage into…you know, the mortgage into your account in seconds [SP]…”

Anna: What about VR headsets?

Carey: Not yet. Not yet. And so we really had to calibrate ourselves. And I’ll never forget the meeting that we were sitting with Steve and then we were finally finalizing the scope of work and I had to walk through every single feature. And I looked at him, I’m like, “It’s just not exciting. It’s not enough, like this isn’t the bank of tomorrow.” And his comment was I think really representative of his solid hand and leadership, which was, “It is for now.” Like there is a lot that this will exemplify and it will drive kind of a cascading effect around the change of the bank. And we’ve gotta catch up. I mean, just small things of being able to easily send money from somebody from their bank account for us was difficult. You have been more advanced. And when we do research, you know, 75% to 85% of the people say they would trust their bank, and they want to send money from their bank versus going to a disruptor P2P. And so, you know, we’ll see how things shape up, you know, over time.

Anna: Do you think we’re at a point where customers…and I asked this to every single panel, regardless. But we’re at a point where customers are actually changing, they would go to Wells if they thought Citi’s app was not very good, or is it still people choosing based of…choose, because they get a better like interest rate somewhere else. Does it really matter to the point that you have to make sure they’re not gonna go away, because the app was crashing?

Sherrie: Yeah, go for it.

Carey: So I’ll go for it. Yeah, they’ll change. So there’s been some research that’s been done that I think it’s 1 in every 3 have actually changed institutions over the last 90 days. And another 18% will change in the next 12 months. And so the appetite for dislodging in the current institution or bank, whether it’s a neobank or a digital bank, and trying something new, is absolutely there. And part of it’s being driven by this next generation of consumers, and what their expectations are, and what their needs are. The question that I always kind of ponder is, “Well, how do you make it easy to change?” Because if you look at the statistics, you know, some of these new entrants are secondary accounts versus primary accounts. And so you have to start to look at that dynamic a little bit, which is, “Okay, well, if I am gonna change to Wells from Citi because they do offer something more, and its interest rate is huge, absolutely, how do I do that quickly?” Because the process right now is quite cumbersome, and I try to liken that back to the ISPs when you used to wanna move to Verizon versus AT&T and you couldn’t move your mobile number, and then you wanted to move phones and you couldn’t move your data and it was a pain in the ass.

You know, I think we’re gonna see the same thing. It’s like what is that kind of switching element to go from institution or brand.

Sherrie: And I would say our motivation is to really be personalized and to really make it easy for customers to wanna stay with us. I mean, that’s what we are about, trying to build that loyalty, and to make sure that it’s secure and that they know it’s secure and that it’s transparent, and making it easy. But personalization is what we are moving toward, for what we are trying to do for our customers.

Anna: So, how do you think open banking and APIs might help shape the products of tomorrow? Are your banks kind of excited about it, not really excited, a bit unsure?

Sherrie: So I would say from a Wells Fargo perspective, this is something we’ve been doing for a long time. We had started this long before it was a craze or a popular thing to do APIs. But our intention is really to help make it easy for some of our customers to not have to build things on their own, but take advantage of what we provide and give them easy access to information or services that they can utilize and still offer our services to their customers much more easily. But it’s just really… I mean, APIs is not rocket science. You know, it’s just something that we need to manage, I do believe that’s the next real big thing is, how do you manage this in a more effective way? Because you can’t just keep building APIs without any kind of understanding of what you’re really trying to do for your customers.

Carey: I’m excited. I mean, I think a lot of us are excited, who’ve been in the sector for a couple decades, because it just opens up the possibility of innovation and new business models that you never would have imagined. And lot of…what I have come to understand is that there’s a lot of companies that do wanna work with the big institutions, and exactly for the reason that I think we’ve heard over the last couple days is, there’s something to be heard with globality and brand and the regulatory environment being managed with new ideas and experiences and new ways of thinking. And so this mash-up, I think can be quite powerful, and an open agenda allows you to do that.

And we weren’t as advanced as you guys, but in November of 2016 we launched our developer hub and we’ve really tried to model it after the stripes of the world and the Google’s of the world and others, of how do we service this new segment of developers, whether they’re startups or from institutions, and what types of services do they wanna actually consume from us? And the beauty of this is that, you know, we opened up and we’re in eight countries now, and over a hundred different APIs that are available, and we are starting to see a lot of momentum, but even that’s hard. I mean, we have to look to manage that as a business and look at the funnel of where the opportunities are. But, you know, not only for Citi, I think for our industry, and for each of us who…I mean, money touches everybody across the world. Like the opportunity to be more open in how we collaborate, I think is just gonna kind of change the future of financial services.

Anna: Have banks figured out how to monetize this yet though? Like, because it fundamentally changes…or it means you’re now a data business as well, not just a…

Carey: Well, look I think that’s something we’re all exploring is, do you monetize it or do you not? Because, you know, I take the view of if we have an API that allows Intuit or allows Yodlee or allows…whomever it may be who aggregate information, to aggregate information on the customers, have the customers consent. Now, the beauty about doing that via an API protocol is it’s safer versus doing screen scraping which has been going on for years.

The question is, do you charge for that? I mean, and you know, I think people have varying points of view, is, is it as a cost recovery play, is it a revenue play, or is it just a part of the world that we live in and the cost of doing business? And so, I don’t know who has figured that out yet, I haven’t…you know, I don’t have exposure to everything across the world but, we have…

Anna: So, I guess we have one minute left, and I mean, I think this is a world first in terms of a FinTech panel of only women and no men, because normally we’re together around. So, let me ask a more…a gender question. So, financial services hasn’t like been a great star in terms of gender diversity at the top, and that probably has shaped the products in some way that have been produced. Do you think we have the same risk with FinTech because FinTech is another industry that’s not doing that great, because it brings in tech. So what are your thoughts, how important is it to have more women at the table in building financial products.

Sherrie: So I’ll go first and say, I think it’s important to have diversity of women, cultures, etc., at the table, as we talk about unbanked, people we don’t really have a close relationship with. We need to have them at the table with us as we’re trying to determine, what are the best kinds of services we need to offer to all of our customers? I mean, diversity as it comes in all shapes, sizes, races, religions, etc., is important to everything that we do. So, FinTech is not an exception.

Carey: I’d agree. I think the two things I would add is…I was asked this on a lean startup panel once when I was once caught off guard. A little bit about it, so I’ve thought about it a lot since. But I agree with the diversity on men. I also think that there is a shift in what leadership acquires, as we move more towards a collaborative and connected environment. And it’s not as linear, I mean, it is definitely one that requires a lot of vulnerability and openness to learn, and constant agility. And I’m not saying that any one gender does it better than the other, but I think that there’s a natural inclination maybe to one versus the other.

Anna: There is no one here to contradict that.

Carey: There’s no one here to contrast me unless someone to stand up and walk out. So, I’ll leave with this. Is I was listening to a woman who is very high up in one of the institutions. And she said they had done a lot of research. And what she shared was, is they found that if you develop product for men, women won’t adopt it. If you develop product for women, the men will adopt it. And so you start to think about, how do you curate your employee base, and who are you here to serve so that at least you’re meeting the masses.

Sherrie: Yes.

Anna: Okay. So I think we’re done with time. Thank you so much.

Carey: Thank you.

Sherrie: Thank you.